Morning Joe | March 07, 2013
>>> with us now, "time" magazine magazining editor, rick stepping steppinglsteppinngel.
>> we have our exclusive story and adaptation of sheryl sand befrg's book, "lean in." sheryl sandberg is the latest and i think the most important entry in these discussions about women in the workplace and what feminism is these days. the cover is "don't hate her because she's successful."
>> that's a fascinating title, "fascinating cover.
>> let me explain it.
>> could you explain it to me? because i'd like to understand.
>> good. one of the things that sheryl says in her book that was a revelation to her when she was a young woman in the workplace is that success and likability are positively correlated for men and negatively correlated for women . that is, men who are successful, people like them more. women who are successful, people like them less.
>> mika 's been saying that for years. in fact, wrote the same thing in her book that you -- the more successful you --
>> there's a piece that i think is going up tomorrow on time.com about sheryl 's book. i wish she was here. she would tell you what's what.
>> she's so successful, she's in the south of france right now, and people hate her for it. mika always said, you know, women that get successful need to look behind them.
>> from other women .
>> mainly from other women .
>> that's right.
>> isn't that amazing?
>> the worst place for women that i ever worked was "working woman" magazine.
>> absolutely. and i know other women have said the same thing. women don't support other women on the way up because "a," there's a feeling that the people who have already made it have paid dues that you have to pay. otherwise you just haven't done your job. but also you're a threat. and if you're on your way up, you're a threat and nobody wants -- there are a limited number of jobs for women at the top, and nobody wants to see theirs taken away. that's the perception.
>> yeah, that's the perception. but you say it. mika 's said it all along. it's not the men you have to worry about.
>> it's the women .
>> but sheryl 's point is saying that women internalize a lot of these things. and what we have to do is free up women from feeling those feelings that hey, people won't like me if i'm successful. or i have to plan for my own lack of success. i mean, she says women -- one of the fascinating things she says women overanticipate and overplan for getting married and having children even before they're married and don't have children.
>> well, i totally see that. i mean, i was 26 years old and getting married and working on wall street at the time and thinking, i'd better get out of here because i don't want to have to get up at 7:00 in the morning. look at us now. and show up for work.
>> 7:00 in the morning, that's like noon for us around here.
>> but i do think women do that. i think a lot of women have this plan that takes them down the road from the time that they graduate college to the time that they have kids to the time that they want to get promoted and do something. and frankly, she's right. it's not that linear. and you should go with it. in some manners.
>> you've also got this related issue which is the one that's probably got a little more attention which is sort of the argument between sheryl sandberg on one hand and ann marie slaughter on the other where you can so-called have it all. sheryl lays out a plan for how you can kind of have it all. the husband does half the, so on and so forth. ann marie slaughter is saying that's just not reality. maybe a reality for you, you have a billion dollars and you have all the help. it's not reality for the average woman. that's what i think some of the pushback comes from.
>> maureen dowd has written a column on this. there are a lot of women who say you can have it all if you have a billion dollars and you can build an office. you know, an office.
>> but again, maybe are you doing that same thing, are you holding it against a successful woman that she actually has made a lot of money?
>> no, i'm not. but i don't want that successful woman to be talking to working-class women and offering advice that might be applicable if you've got a billion dollars but not if you make $50,000 and you're a single house mom .
>> she talks about that. we all can't be sheryl sandberg . she is mostly addressing women who already have some means, but there are things relevant for women with more modest means. part of what she's doing is it's supposed to go across all income groups. basically women limit themselves in whatever group they're in. doesn't have anything to do with income.
>> if these groups actually get other women to support other women , i think shell actually accomplished what she set out to do.
>> but that's the question.
>> frankly, on the question of balance, i tend to think it's a crock. i am successful and i don't believe that you can have this. i think you have to choose --
>> men will do the laundry?
>> my husband, as you know, does the laundry, and i'm grateful for that.
>> let me ask you this, though, and again, with mika , what she'll always tell people, what she was saying is i always try to keep things in balance, and you know what, one day everything will be in balance and the next day i'll think i'm the worst mom in the world and the worst this and the worst that. and then two days later something will break that you never can have it all.
>> on any particular day. she is totally right. on some days you're good with your kids, on some days you're good at work. if over the course of a week or month you're balanced, you're doing fine and you should as a woman give yourself a break.
>> a number of us know how mika lives her life and she is a level responsibility outside this studio that's probably greater than what a number of men at this studio have. you're a great father.
>> i'm the first to say that. and we were talking about even going on vacation. if i'm out of town on business for five days, my kids who absolutely love me, who tackle me when i get in the door, if i'm gone for five days, they're sad. when's daddy coming home ? if their mom is gone for two days, they start twitching. where's's mommy? where's mommy? i know you've seen this. it's hard to find a father as a a close relationship -- i'm not bragging, i'm making a point -- with their kids than me. i work and i'm with my family. and even in that case, i'm not mommy, and when mommy goes away on business, after about two days it starts to -- when's mommy coming back? there is just this innate connection wet mother.
>> and if so heart breaking. my kids are old enough now that you would think they would be past this, and i had it last week with my daughter because i traveled, and she let me have it.
>> you carry that with you everybody you go, right?
>> absolutely. and it makes it hard to feel good about being where you are either place.
>> we were on a book tour, chris licht and i were on a book tour when chris worked here, and mika had come along and she was on the book tour and we were doing these live shows along the way. six days in, mika started getting lost and going in the elevator and chris said, i think it's time for her to go home and see her daughter. but it's true, there's such a burden on women , not that there shouldn't be on men.
>> women tend to blame themselves more for things than men do. whether it's in business or as a father, and women underrate their performance whether in business or as a mother.
>> men have the ability, i have found in general, from what i've seen, to compartmentize. i'll make it up to my kids when i get home and they'll have to understand. a lot of moms, you don't do that, do you?
>> not well enough.
>> yeah, it's tough. well, this is fascinating. there's also joe klein talks about a jeb bush interview on this show in his piece comparing president obama and jeb bush .
>> very smart piece. i think joe's first sentence is jeb bush is not not running for president, and he, you know, joe is outlining his campaign.
>> all right. very good. thanks so much. in a few minutes we'll be talking to tom coburn . " morning joe " continues